Talk:Chapter 197/@comment-197.89.22.249-20160505132001/@comment-27788729-20160508090529
@Anon: I don't really know what you're saying anymore. Why did you die Loling? What connection does that have to anything we're discussing? Also what do you mean 'nothing is faked everything is real'? Because that statement itself seems illogical in the context of the English language since we have words like 'fake' and 'imitation' and borrow 'faux' exactly to capture concepts of 'not reality'. Also it seems a highly meta-physical point which...doesn't have any bearing on our discussion as far as I can tell. Anyway why do you use Ticy's example of her thoughts and feelings being artificially altered and tampered with as evidence of...something? Yes Ticy explains the effects of the mind control on her, as does Elizabeth to an extent (only Arnett doesn't have much of an inner monologue about it) but that doesn't alter anything. No one disagrees that they were mind controlled. Then; "in this case it can be used" so does that mean you're agreeing now or not? You go on to talk again about how 'he did it to save their lives' (something I never disagreed and not at all relevant since I am discussing purely what it is not whether or not it was justifiable to use). Also why do you say rape is worse than control? If you want to draw a distinction between them, alright I'll just respectfully decline to do the same, but why would you possibly say being raped is worse than someone removing your free will and forcing you to do things you don't want to do? Honestly I'd argue that even trying to compare which of these is 'worse' is an inane pursuit since both are just absolutely horrid 'violations'. If you want to use 'control' as opposed to 'rape' feel free to do so but it doesn't diminish at all the moral blameworthiness of 'control'. Nor do I agree at all that they 'overreacted' since their free will had just been violated and trampled and they, understandably, did not appreciate or enjoy it. Also I'm honestly a bit exhausted of countering your 'Pandora know everything is expected to fight Nova and thus count as having consented to anything done in pursuit of it' since its simply untrue, a ridiculous assumption and honestly a scary ideology to justify something. Almost any goal can be accomplished more easily by more moral blameworthy methods. That doesn't mean we all consent to whatever methods are necessary to achieve a goal. Not at all. Additionally, if you want an example, Elizabeth has already explicitly demonstrated in the story that she believes certain 'principles' are more important than simply achieving the goal of defeating the Nova, hence why she attempted to prevent the E-Pandora Project. For many people it is certainly true that simply achieving victory at any cost is not a victory, for many people disregarding the wills, values and lives of everyone simply to achieve your goal is pointless. So no, clearly, the Pandora do not count as consenting to anything Kazuya does to them simply because they are also in the fight against the Nova. Also please stop bringing up facts which have no relation to our discussion at all. It gets tiring respond to and it means that my posts just grow longer and longer and I am already someone who prefers to type long and precise responses even to small matters. That Kazuya's power might change over time is true but has no bearing at all on the fact that what he performed in this chapter was mind control. Also you don't 'need to know what is happening' to not want to be violated. Honestly this point is so simply it baffles me we are still discussing it; If a person doesn't want you to violate them and you do violate them (physically, mentally or emotionally) then that is wrong and morally blameworthy.